Melanie Tonia Evans

Should I Talk To My Kids About Narcissism? Q&A with Melanie and Zac

Written by   Melanie Tonia Evans Permalink 19
Written By   Melanie Tonia Evans


If you are a parent struggling with helping your children after your narcissistic abuse situation, then I can’t recommend this episode enough.

Within it, you will learn what to tell your children, how to empower them and even how to help reunite with them if they have been smeared against you or alienated away from you.

My heart goes out to every parent suffering with co-parenting with a narcissist or trying to repair the damage that happened to their children after one.

It is Zac’s and my greatest desire, today, that this Q and A, offers you key tools to not just ease the pain, but truly overcome every fear, challenge, and heartbreak you have suffered with your children – just as Zac and I have together.



Video Transcript

Melanie: Welcome to Thriver TV, the place to break free from narcissistic abuse with quantum tools and understandings. And today we’ve got a very special episode because this is a first-ever Thriver TV with my son Zac. And for those of you who don’t know Zac, Zac is my son and he is also the CEO of MTE. So welcome Zac.

Zac: Thanks mum. It’s so great to be here. It’s so great to finally be on Thriver TV, and hello.

Melanie: I know a lot of people have been asking for Zac and this is it, he’s finally doing it. It’s so good, and we’re both so excited about this episode because we’re going to be answering your questions that were posted on Instagram and Facebook a few days ago about how to help your children heal after being through a relationship with a narcissist. And one of our beautiful Thriver members requested this show so this is why we’re doing it. And we’ve had some amazing questions come through from so many of you and I’m so excited to share these answers with you. Now, just before we get into this show, I wanted to quickly tell you that we are running my premier abuse recovery workshop in capital cities in Australia in early December. If you’re an Aussie or you can get to Australia in December, I would love to see you there. Information and tickets can be found at the link at the top right. All right, so we’re going to start off with our first question, which is one from Instagram. So what have you got there Zac?

Zac: Yeah, so Restoring Hope Again on Instagram asks, “How do I co-parent with a narcissist, but try to make sure my son isn’t mentally abused, taken advantage of, lied to, et cetera. How do I also combat the lies that the narcissistic father tells my son? My son is only four and his dad and I have been separated for two years, but I have so much anxiety about how my son’s narcissistic father will affect him. Thank you for what you do and I hope you can help.”

Melanie: Okay, so all right. This is what I say to every parent who is co-parenting with a narcissist. The first thing that you need to do is do the deep, constant healing work on yourself. Because the truth is you can’t change a narcissist and what they’re doing, and the lies and the smearing, and the abuse and the manipulation. And the more that you actually try to combat that from a place of feeling traumatized by it, the worse it will escalate and the worse it will affect your child. And this causes so many problems. So when you heal you and you get centred and empowered and you’re able to start parallel parenting, which is a part of what we teach in the NARP community, and we also teach you how to not get triggered and traumatized, you start taking your power back and you set a very powerful template for your child to follow your example.

Melanie: And even at a very early age, children follow this example powerfully. Our most successful parallel parenting people in our community are not trying to combat a narcissist on a head level and on a strategy level, they’re actually healing and diffusing all of the triggers and the traumas within themselves so that you can be solid and centred and powerful for your child regardless of what the narcissist is or isn’t doing. So then what happens is the child will start feeling settled and calm because where you go, they go. They will start to pick up the difference and they will start to, even at a young age, they will see who to gravitate to and who not to gravitate to, and the narcissist will stop the games. You will see that happen as well. So I cannot suggest it enough, look up parallel parenting and look at the NARP program. It’s essential for people that are co-parenting so that you can do it effectively. I really hope that helps.

Zac: Okay, so I’ve got the next question from Instagram. Korean Atopy asks, “So Zac’s father was the narc whose covert abuse almost killed Mel, right? Has Zac forgiven his dad? Do you guys see him or is he completely out of the picture?” Yeah, so this is the important distinction to make. My father actually was not the narcissist who was in the relationship with Melanie. My father had a relationship with Melanie when I was very young and they split up when I was two years old. So no, the narcissist that was the first relationship that Melanie was married to, we have no contact with and yeah —

Melanie: Never will.

Zac: Never will. I’m very happy for it to stay that way. So I hope that answers that question.

Melanie: And if I can just say it wasn’t quite covert, it was very overt. But yeah, I hope that that’s cleared that up for some people. But I will say though that even though it was Zac’s stepfather, he did create a lot of smearing and alienation where I nearly lost Zac. So yeah, that part of it still played out very powerfully.

Zac: True, very true.

Melanie: Absolutely. Okay, so on to the next question.

Zac: Okay, so the next question is from Facebook. Mary Angel asks or she says, “Thank you so much for this. Here’s my question. My kids are 13 and 11 and they see their dad two or three times a year. When they stay with him for a few days, they come back the following days feeling frustrated, sad, guilty, and also angry at me. Should I talk to them about their dad’s narcissism?”

Melanie: This is such a good question. I’m just going to go straight to it. No, don’t talk about his narcissism to them. Because as soon as you start putting him down and you start saying your father is this, your father is that, what that is going to do is push your children away from you. So what you do need to do is have really good boundaries with them. Don’t overcompensate, because they come back like this and then you’re trying to smooth things over. You want to lead the way powerfully for them. And if they’re feeling guilty or they’re feeling sad or they’re feeling down, bolster them up.

Melanie: Empower them and say things to them like, “You know, I can see that you’re feeling sad or you’re feeling down, but this doesn’t mean that there’s something wrong with you. You know, sometimes people are like this,” and “Or that’s just your father, but that doesn’t have to affect you, because you’re amazing. You’re incredible. There’s so many things that are great about you. Now, let’s just put that aside and we’re going to have a great time. We’re going to have an empowered time. I’m going to have boundaries with you, which means that I don’t accept your poor behaviour or your bad behaviour, but I’m also not saying that you are bad or that there’s something wrong with you.”

Melanie: Where we go, our children follow. And what happens often as parents is, we feel bad for them and we feel sad and we feel guilty and we feel terrible and all that does is exasperate and accentuate what they’re feeling. We want our children to know they can feel empowered and whole regardless of what anybody else is or isn’t doing or being. That’s what we want to teach our children. That’s what thriving and empowerment is about. I really hope that helps.

Zac: Yeah. And if I could just say, really powerfully what you’re saying mum, like when you lead the way, don’t underestimate how smart your children are. When you’re leading the way, when you’re showing them how to be empowered, how to live your life the right way, and they see their father’s behaviour, they’ll quickly see who’s the right one. If you want to say right or wrong, but you know who’s the person they should listen to. They’re a lot smarter, you know, kids are very smart.

Melanie: I agree. Your kids are so smart and so intelligent. You know, they’re not stupid. And they gravitate to what feels good. If we’re being victims and we’re telling them how bad it is for them and how shocking it is and how bad the other parent is, you know, that’s going to push your children away from you every time.

Zac: More likely they’re not going to believe you if you start doing that and they’re going to side with the other one, I think.

Melanie: And it happens all the time. You know? That’s how parent alienation sadly and tragically happens. I hope that can really help you.

Zac: All right, so we’ve got the next question from Ieva on Facebook. Now Ieva was one of the wonderful Thrivers who came and saw us in February in the UK. It was so great meeting you there, Ieva. If you’re watching this …

Melanie: We love Ieva. Hello darling.

Zac: Your question was, “I would like to know more about proxy healing please. Thank you.”

Melanie: Oh, one of my favourite, favourite topics. Proxy healing is something that NARP members can powerfully do and it is phenomenal how powerful it is. Okay. So how it works is in quantum reality our belief systems about somebody affect them incredibly powerfully. And also, we have the ability to work on others through ourselves, because we’re all interconnected as one, especially with our children, whether it be a biological link or even in the case of an adoption, it’s a heart link that is so energetically powerful. So where we shift our beliefs and our DNA to, is where our children follow. I used this with Zac, healing by proxy, when Zac went through an awful phase in his life, in his teenage life where he was on a self-destruction path. I was trying to lecture and prescribe and fix and force him into shape, and the more I did that, the worse things got, which I know a lot of you parents experience with kids of all ages.

Melanie: When I finally let go and I knew the quantum truth, that I have no power to change anybody else. I only ever have the power to change me. I went inside myself with Quanta Freedom Healing with NARP, and I found all of the traumas relating to my trauma about him. And I shifted and I shifted and I shifted, and kept bringing in source until I came into source truth, which is that Zac has an inner being that can awaken into his power and health. That’s a source truth. And when I had hit that place, my fear about him was gone, even though his circumstance was dire. I didn’t know whether my son was going to live or die, it was that bad.

Melanie: Then what I did is I set the intention that I would work on his inner being through my inner being. And with NARP, we can do that. And how you do that is you ask permission to his higher self whether or not I’m allowed to do that. And the answer that I got through muscle test, you can do it through intuition, was a yes. So I got to work on that. Through my body I was able to feel his internal trauma, shift it out and bring in Source. And I did that work for only a few days. And then I hit a place where I felt this calm, peace and warmth for him, through me, as well as the calm I already had through me. And then Zac contacted me —

Melanie: Zac contacted me after three weeks of silence and said to me, “Mum, we need to meet down at the pub and I’ve stopped doing what I’m doing and I love you and I’m so sorry and I’ve seen the light” and he’s never looked back. And that experience has happened for countless parents that are working with this. Because if you see your children as broken, or narcissistic, or damaged or victimized, that’s exactly what they’re going to continue producing for you in your experience.

Melanie: When you change your beliefs and your knowing about your children then you can get to work by proxy working on their inner beings from your inner being, the results are beyond quantum. They are spectacular. They are miraculous. They create miracles every day in the NARP community. And in the NARP forum, we actually teach you how to do that healing by proxy. So if you’re already a thriver, you’ve already created incredible shifts in your life. The next step is you can work on your children by proxy if you want to. So I don’t know if Zac has anything more to add about that. Well, you were on the receiving end of that. You didn’t know I was doing that. You had no idea that I was doing that.

Zac: Yeah, I din’t know it was happening. And then sort of all of a sudden it’s just seeing this change get made and sort of, yeah. It’s sort of almost hard to put into words, but it’s —

Melanie: Something shifted, right?

Zac: Something shifted yeah and new opportunities opened up …

Melanie: Well, it was kind of like, because at 19 when I literally had Zac evicted from the home, things were so bad and I’ll never forget his parting words to me as he left. I mean, we can laugh now. At the time it was the worst. The police were coming in half an hour to take him. That’s how bad it was. And as he was leaving he looked at me, it was the worst day of my life, was worse than my demise, and he said, “The next time we lay eyes on each other is going to be on one of our deathbeds.”… and he said, “Never again are you my mother.” And that’s how he left. Three weeks later we were hugging. He’d stopped doing what he was doing, and had massively turned the corner and I know 1000% it’s because of the healing by proxy. I know that. So there you go. You had no idea at the time. You had no idea. It was a long time ago … we’re talking 11 years ago now that it happened.

Zac: Okay. So I’ve got the next question from Facebook. Amanda asks, “I want to know how’s Zac experienced his mum before she started thriving and then now.” Okay. So yeah, this is probably an experience that I haven’t had a chance to share with everyone on YouTube and you know, across the community. But it is a very important one. I definitely thought she wasn’t going to make it. I thought she was going to be traumatized for the rest of her life. At 16 years of age, I’d accepted that my mum was either going to be in a mental institution or she was going to be driven to her death. I was deeply afraid of him and what he would do, and I thought he was going to harm her and possibly me and other people. It was an extremely difficult time to say the least. The Mel you see now is nothing like she was. She is not the same person that she was back then.

Melanie: Or even before then.

Zac: And I don’t want to say any harsh things because I mean…

Melanie: Oh no, we can be totally honest with each other. For sure.

Zac: But she…

Melanie: I was horrible.

Zac: Yeah. She was a completely different person. You weren’t necessarily horrible. You were honest to me about what was going on and that was … I really appreciated that.

Melanie: Yeah.

Zac: I knew what was going on. You didn’t try and hide anything. You didn’t try and demonize him but you were deeply struggling and you were hooked and addicted. I think maybe that was the really frustrating thing. We wanted to shake you. You know, and I think so many kids want to do this; they want to shake you and say snap out of it, this guy’s going to kill you. You need to get out of it. And you wouldn’t. So you would keep crawling back and seeing him again and again. And it was, you know, seeing your own mother do that and, and I guess, not having a good father, you know, having a father figure in the home that’s destroying your own mother is a really challenging thing to go through.

Melanie: Yeah. And also too, you know, there were a couple of incidences where you tried to protect me and you couldn’t because he was very big and strong and physically threatening. And that was horrific for you. But I know that I went through a lot of guilt because being so dishevelled and when you’re traumatized, you’re not available and you don’t have patience. And I wasn’t there for Zac through a lot of his teenage stuff and growing up and his challenges because I wasn’t even there for myself. So, my heart goes out to a lot of parents because I know the guilt and the pain that you feel. You know, I wasn’t really a mother’s shoelace (effective mother) and it wasn’t my fault. It’s just the way it was.

Zac: It’s never you. It’s never anyone’s fault, you know?

Melanie: No, no, it was just a really hard time for everybody. But it’s nothing like what we have now.

Zac: So, what is Mel like now? Words can’t describe how much she’s just … she’s not the same person. You give her a completely different character because of the person she is today, how she’s able to help change the lives of so many people. I think it’s very apparent how much she’s helping people, that she spends her entire day from the moment she gets up to the moment she goes to bed thinking about how she can help more people. It’s just so inspiring. It’s led the way for me and now we get to do this together. Yeah, I couldn’t be happier to have you as my mum.

Melanie: So sweet. Yeah. That’s so sweet, Zac. Thank you. Well, I know that as we Thrive and commit to releasing trauma and bringing in source, we literally rebirth. We become a new and a true self. So quite frankly, I don’t even recognize the person who I used to be. I’m happy to be a completely different, evolved, forever evolving being because, oh gosh, who I was, wasn’t working. Who I am now, does.

Zac: So the next question on Instagram is from Stockingstyle and her question is, “Zac, at what point did you realize and know for sure that you are thriving?” Now, this is a really good question, actually. For me, thriving isn’t so much a destination as it is a state. It’s something that I’m continually working on. It’s something that I don’t necessarily feel like I’ve arrived at that place and then I’m there. In the early days, like we were just saying, growing up, watching what mum went through, having this figure in the house that was not a good person to be around, it did leave me and as you probably know, if you have children that especially in teenage years or the developing years, I sort of, I didn’t know my place in the world. I didn’t have a supportive figure to sort of help guide me through that period. I felt very lost, alone and really lacked a lot of confidence, so I didn’t sort of have any belief in myself. I didn’t see myself going anywhere and a lot of that had been lost. Maybe I sort of had that at a young age, but now I sort of felt completely lost.

Zac: I think when I recognized that I was starting to thrive or getting into that state of thriving is when I had the self-belief. So when I believed I could actually do something in this world, help people, even do something meaningful, whether it’s a career or a hobby or a passion or just something that I was able to put so much of my energy and focus on and then see results, see something that actually positively impacted people. So the work that I’m doing at MTE, the things I do, how I can help people, that to me is thriving. That to me is living the life that I want to live. And yeah, it’s really getting back to that, that believing yourself, putting yourself into something that you’re passionate about, and then seeing the end result that comes from it.

Melanie: If I can just add here. A long time ago when I started doing the core inner shifts on myself, I set the intention that any shift on my trauma would be passed on to Zac. So he’s been kind of pretty lucky that he hasn’t had to do a lot of healing work on it himself, even though you do. Of course, he does.

Zac: But I do that as well.

Melanie: He does it as well. Absolutely.

Zac: I had an extra boost.

Melanie: You got an extra boost. But what I’ve seen happen so organically is that often when I’ve broken through and reached a confidence and a belief and an inner power, I’ve noticed it happens with him as well. It just happens organically. And I think that’s what’s so wonderful about … quantum theory, they call it the entanglement theory which is connected organisms and cells. When one shifts, the other will reflect the shift regardless of what the distance is between them. And I see it happen with Zac all the time. It’s just beautiful. People report that through the generations backwards and forwards with quantum freedom healing all the time. It’s pretty magical. Maybe that’s got a lot to do with it. I mean, he’s done so much of it himself as well. Absolutely.

Zac: Yeah. There were some long years of doing a lot of the personal work.

Melanie: Yeah. You did. And you really took responsibility and did that, which is fantastic.

Zac: All right, so we’ve got the next question. This is for Mel on Instagram. Honey Ruth asks, “I’m concerned that my 29 year old son is carrying trauma from the 20 years that he was subjected to living this lifestyle with my husband. It almost would appear that he’s acquired the behaviours now, the dark side of him. But I have to save myself and I’m working to help me and I’ve sustained my son to an enabling level. What do I do now?”

Melanie: Yeah. I love what Honey Ruth wrote, what you are saying is that you have to save yourself and you have to focus on you because this is so, so true. If we come back to the quantum premise that you cannot change anybody else, then you only ever have the power to change yourself. So what you’re going to do is change yourself into is a self-honouring, self-loving being where you’re creating boundaries. Where you’re saying to the world and other people, ‘I’m teaching you how to treat me.’ So with these boundaries, what will happen is … and it can be heartbreaking with people we love. But this is where if we enable, as Neale Donald Walsch says about this, ‘to allow an abuser to continue abusing is an act of abuse.’

Melanie: So what he really means by that is that … if we set a truth and a value for ourselves, we give other people the opportunity to move up into a space of being respectful, loving, decent people. And if we don’t, we allow them to continue defiling the integrity of their true self by being an abuser. So you have to do that regardless. Then what you can do, of course I’m always going to say, I would love you to be working with the inner healing powerfully because then what you can do is no longer be triggered, no longer feel guilty and no longer hand over power. To have very clear, calm, truthful boundaries. But also you could be doing the inner and possible proxy work to help de-traumatize his soul, if you have permission to do that work on him. So there’s a lot you can do, but you cannot keep going the way you are of enabling him, because everybody loses. You lose. He loses. Your life and the things and missions and people you love lose as well. I hope that helps.

Zac: Okay, so we’ve got the next question from Instagram. So Cal asks, “I would love to hear from Zac how he felt when he was in the throes of narc abuse and how he translated that hurt into his own life and then what prompted him to start making different decisions and start his healing journey?”

Zac: This is a really good question. Thanks for asking this. There was sort of a period like we spoke about before, the period before Mel had accepted what she was going through and turn inward to start healing herself. Before she did that, she was really difficult, honestly, difficult to be around. I sort of had to separate myself. I had to shut myself off. I didn’t really know boundaries very well back then, but I was trying to just separate myself, go by my own thing. I was in university, I was trying to study and just sort of make my way through the world.

Zac: But when Mel finally turned inward and sort of accepted the journey and started going through it, we connected, you know, we connected, and I saw I could see the change in her. I could see that she wasn’t going to go back to him. And maybe that was part of the frustration that I was hanging onto. When she’d finally let go and when she’d finally turned inwards, taking responsibility for what she was going through, I started to see my mother as a role model again, and we started working together and we would talk about workshops or books I was reading and we spent a lot of time together really working on things together.

Melanie: And I would do healings. Because before then I used to hide things and I used to say, “no, everything’s fine”. And I thought that was the right thing to do, but he wasn’t stupid. He knew I was lying to him. And then when I just came out and I just went, “you know what, I’m broken and I need to heal”. And I was very vulnerable and honest with him, and I’d say, Zac, I’m going to go and do a healing. You’re probably going to hear me wail and cry and do all sorts of things, but it’s perfect because I’m getting my trauma out because I have to get better. And rather than him being really distressed and disgusted by that, I know it gave him a lot of comfort.

Zac: It was inspiring.

Melanie: Yeah. And it really gave him permission to be real with how he was feeling, and to share that with me as well. So we really came together in this authenticity, which helped us both so much.

Zac: Absolutely.

Melanie: Yeah. It was a powerful time. Well, this was your question. I’m sorry, I didn’t want to hijack that. Was there anything more you needed to add?

Zac: No, just to really support the honesty. I think it’s just so important. Don’t hide anything away. Just be … I mean it can depend maybe if they’re very young, there’s certain details that obviously you wouldn’t tell a very young child, but you don’t have to tell them everything. But don’t say everything’s okay. I think that sends completely the wrong message.

Mel: True.

Zac: Be very honest, open, be vulnerable. And I think your kids will gravitate towards you and they’ll be inspired by that.

Zac: So our next question from Facebook. Jillian asks, “How can I connect with an alienated 20-year-old who’s convinced I’ve traumatized her? She tells the same to her siblings, although away at uni she’s still a flying monkey. It’s heartbreaking.”

Melanie: Yeah. Jillian, this is like, this happens all the time in the community and it’s one of the things that I really adamantly want to reach out to parents to help you with because I can’t imagine what, it nearly happened to me. I can’t, anyway, Jillian, I just want to say, you have to heal. Quantum law is this, so within, so without. The trauma of being alienated, if you can’t up-level and get yourself free of that in the inside, you’re going to keep receiving that from the outside. That’s the bottom line. This is what happens with so many parents in this community that have been alienated, that when they heal, when they release, when they’ll be able to come to peace, regardless of what’s happening out there, out there has to shift to match in there. It happens all the time.

Melanie: And the other thing about this is, is when we have the injustice of persecution and being smeared and set upon, that’s a huge, huge trauma. When that all releases and that all goes, this will never be about convincing her that you’re right and that he’s wrong or convincing her about how you’ve been traumatized and brutalized. That’s not what you’re here to convince her about. You are here to become love and let go of trauma and be able to allow the space and the love for her to move back into your life.

Melanie: We have had people in this community that have had five generations of dissension, fractures, decades of alienation who have healed. One family, five generations had been shattered and alienated and all came back together because one person in those five generations, and she knows who she is, and she’ll be watching this, she watches every episode, did the profound healing within her being to become love and feel and heal and know the family as love. They all reconnected. I promise you it’s the only way. And the thing is, there is no guarantee that that will happen, but there is the guarantee that if you do the inner work, the pain and the trauma will be gone. And from there everything is possible, including miracles. I hope that helps.

Melanie: I’ve really enjoyed doing this episode with you, Zac and I don’t think this will be the last one we do. You know, we may do this again, I’m really excited about the feedback and the questions and connecting to you all, and maybe, you might even ask Zac some questions on the blog or YouTube as well that he can answer.

Melanie: So, thank you so much for sending in your questions. And it is my greatest heart desire that we can help you. I am so passionate about our children and our future generations. It’s a topic so dear to my heart, I always get emotional when I talk about it.

Zac: It’s all right. It’s okay.

Melanie: I always do. This is the only thing I know, “Oh my God.” But it’s huge for me and I know it’s huge for you too. All right. So if you’re not already following me on Facebook and Instagram, please make sure you do, because we’re doing lots more exciting things there like this Q&A, and you can get daily inspiration tools and tips on there as well, 100%. So, so looking forward to your comments and questions on this really important episode that I’ve so enjoyed sharing with my dear son.

Zac: It’s been great. Thanks for having me on the show.

Melanie: Oh, that’s okay. It’s been, it’s a journey. It’s a few takes, but it’s fabulous. Zac’s not used to this. He’s done such a great job.

Zac: I’ve had a good teacher.

Melanie: Yeah, you’ve done a really great job. So anyway, people, you know how it goes, keep smiling, keep healing and keep thriving because there’s nothing else to do. And also too, I would love to see you at my live events. Zac will be there too.

Zac: Hope to see you there.

Melanie: The Thriver team and our MTE global team are going to be there and we’re going to hold you, help you and heal you and your future generations. And also, know that we have a $100 discount, which is going on the 18th of November so we’d love you to get in early and get your tickets. All right. Lots of love, everybody. Bye Bye.

Zac: Bye.


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Melanie Tonia Evans is an international narcissistic abuse recovery expert. She is an author, radio host, and founder of Quanta Freedom Healing and The Narcissistic Abuse Recovery Program. Melanie's healing and teaching methods have liberated thousands of people from the effects of narcissistic abuse world-wide.

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48 Thoughts on Should I Talk To My Kids About Narcissism? Q&A with Melanie and Zac
    Mary Mary
    November 4, 2019

    This is an excellent question. It is one I have asked myself many times. Knowing what to say and how to say it can be daunting. Thank you so much Melanie

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 4, 2019

      It’s my pleasure Mary Mary,

      and I so hope this has helped.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

      November 5, 2019

      This was lovely to watch and I gained so much. Have been using NARP since 2012 & still doing it. Love the proxy healing, will try with my 20 year old son who needs some healing. Thank you Zac & Melanie❤️❤️

      • Melanie Tonia Evans
        November 5, 2019

        Awww Suki,

        So pleased this helped.

        Much love to you and your son.

        Mel 🙏💕💛

    Darlene Porter
    November 4, 2019

    Thank you for sharing Narp work with your son as this is my difficult job now . I have been ostracized by my children and grandchildren. I am working my out of this mess. The divorce process is starting to wear on my X , he looks older, has a five year as he is sixty five who will wear him further. I am free to find someone new , travel and do what I wish to do without his control.
    Please do more programs on your son and yourself. Thank you again . May God bless you and Zac.

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 4, 2019

      Hi Darlene,

      you are welcome and I am sure there will be more TTVs with Zac, for sure.

      I wish you powerful healing, freedom and breakthrough Dear Lady.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 4, 2019

    Hi Mel Hi Zac
    Lovely to see you both together after meeting you in London.

    I am really keen to get your input – especially Zac – after my son said some really heart breaking things the other day. Hes been having a tough time at school often refusing to go – he can’t stand his very strict and insensitive teacher and he’s been acting out a lot with me and angry/blaming me for our financial, limited circumstances etc. I have struggled to keep calm through it all due to not having enough calm space for me to do my own healing and self care much of the time. He’s 10 in year 5. He is often bored and lonely and alone with me a lot – despite my efforts to organise play dates etc.

    He said among other things when heightened: I’d rather go and live on the street than with you…where’s my birth certificate I want to change my name and no longer have you as my mother…I feel empty, there’s nothing there…I wish I could start my life again.
    Then later in the most desperate moments he texted me from within the house from a tablet to say : “I’m lost and full of depression and nothing can make me better” followed by “are you happy now”.

    He has addictive tendencies with foods, sugar and screens or obsessions with things. So I know I do have fears about the teenage years to clear – although he is very close to puberty as he is physically big for his age and looks older. His Dad and my ex had addictions.

    I know through clearing some of this that he relates best when he’s engaged with his brain and purpose on positive things (as you say Zac) and we do talk about his interests and ambitions for the future. Hes very able academically and gets bored at school too. Plus hes a keen cook which is something he does with me at home. He plays football although broke his finger a couple weeks ago that has prevented that for a bit which brought a lot to the surface as change of routine. I know he needs more focused activities when i can. But it’s the massive dips and ups and more downs than ups that concerns me – he says he feels OK when doing something fun or distracting but goes back to the down place straight after. He used to get aggressive with me but now its mostly just objects hes aggressive with so that’s progress.

    He doesn’t see his father and he had to witness me in a difficult relationship for about 4 and half years on and off.

    I can see how I should start by clearing my feelings about him or his situation first. Then approach healing my proxy. One moment the other day I was stuck in yet another stand off about going out to get us out the house but not with a certain or exciting plan for him, so I just felt in to and allowed the emotions to rise up at beginning of a module when he immediately came down and was lighter and ready to go and came food shopping and asked for a haircut. I hadn’t even started to look in to it.
    So I could see how removing the stuck blocks, allowing the movement to come in helps.
    But any more advice on this very depressed and lost feelings of hopelessness my son has….?

    I know I have struggled with boundaries in terms of over compensating and accepting poor behavior and struggling to assert myself. As well as I’ve been difficult to be around too and erratic in my emotions and moods. I have always tried to be open and honest because I never had that as a child and I suffered for it. Perhaps too much for his age. Also my ex used to entangle him in our arguments and he got woken up a lot at night. BUT I have never put his Dad down and we are able to laugh off about old habits of my ex when in comes up – he seems to relate things and mention him in context. My Dad is a narc too and lately he is resistant to spend time with him any longer than brief times with me there. He says he feels he doesn’t care so that is him waking up to the false self my Dad lives with I think. They were close when he was young.
    I do get very sad about it all and the pressure hes faced in his young life and the distracted, overwhelmed Mother he’s lived with a lot. But I take on what you say about being honest when I need to take myself off to have a cry or module. (although he’s 10 – is that still OK? He’s seen me cry a lot anyway so better to explain it I guess)

    One question I have also is do you see any benefit of having a psychologist/psychotherapist or any private sessions for my son separately from me…?

    Many thanks to you both and it is a little like looking in a mirror hearing about your relationship through narc abuse!
    I Hope I get us to this level of clarity you have together – very inspiring!
    Zac maybe you should start video’s for the children – esp the boys!?

    Love Sophie xx

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 4, 2019

      Hi Sophie,

      I am sure Zac will pop in too.

      Truly Sophie, I cant recommend working on this enough INSIDE you first.

      Truly then you will know what is left, and then you can work on that energetically too.

      You see the hardest thing is trying to create change whilst in the trauma, whereas QFH (NARP) releases that and then there is space for calm, knowing and power – whereby you will show up and lead in effectual ways, and so many things truly do shift on their own accord – as your son will as well.

      Personally I would do that before the ‘other stuff’ because the ‘other stuff’ could be a completely different picture after doing the inner work, and anything you connect to after doing the inner work will be so much easier and more powerful to implement.

      Sophie are you in the NARP Forum reaching out for guidance and support ?

      I can’t recommend that enough for you.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Sophie! (This is Zac responding on Mel’s account)

      For starters Sophie it is clear that you are an incredible Mum who cares so deeply about her son. Please remember that and don’t be too hard on yourself.

      Your best bet is absolutely to clear the trauma inside you to lead the way for him. I also, think it’s very important to realise that a boy’s early development is going to include challenges that can’t be avoided. While he is finding his way in the world he will feel lost, angry and misunderstood… Continue to be there for him, even when he acts out. Instead of lecturing or making rules and punishments, focus on understanding where his anger is coming from, and create an environment where he feels safe to express himself emotionally. This doesn’t mean you ”accept” poor treatment, he can still learn right from wrong, but now you are seeking to understand him instead of trying to get him to act a certain way.

      It’s not always going to happy times, he will act out, he’s a boy and he needs to find his place in the world. But he will appreciate having a mother who loves and understands him, and as he grows up and finds his way these negative patterns will become less common.

      Jane M.
      November 8, 2019

      Dear Sophie,
      I hope it’s okay I comment on your story.
      Your story is just too similar to my sister-in-law’s and her 10 years old son. I love my nephew and sister in-law very much yet I see how his personality is driven downwards, unintentionally and unconsciously by my sister in law, who is a very loving and caring mother (she is separated from my brother).
      If you are still on the blog, and would like to hear an input from anyone else, except Mel and Zac, please let me know and I’ll write you again.
      I don’t want to do that without your permission since you addressed your questions to Mel and Zac.
      I don’t know if there is a way to message you directly on the NARP forum but if there is, I can do that too.
      Much healing to you !

    November 4, 2019

    This has made me wonder: is it possible to heal a narc by proxy? I have no contact with my 2 exes but, since healing myself, I bear no malice toward them. I know they have their own issues with which they are struggling. I’ve prayed for them. Can I ‘send’ them love and healing?

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 4, 2019

      Hi Anne,

      the people who have tried proxy healings on N’s sadly have ended up even more soul polluted as a result of doing so.

      The best thing we can do for them and ourselves is detach and from a distance bless their journey and take full responsibility for ours.

      Their journey is not ours to get involved with – it truly is to help people wake up and come home to themselves. If we personally have done that then the soul contract is complete.

      I wrote about that here:

      I hope this helps.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    Marilyn Miner
    November 4, 2019

    Thank you very much Melanie and Zac. It’s very helpful to hear Zac’s perceptions. This discussion is inspiring. And you’re right, Melanie, being smeared and ostracized (for years even while still in the marriage, and of course after I left) is in itself traumatizing. Thank you so much for everything you are doing to help everyone. I love having your book too! Thank you both.

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Marilyn,

      You are very welcome and I’m so pleased you are enjoying my book.

      Much love to you

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 4, 2019

    I love this! How beautiful to witness you and Zac working, healing, thriving together. It is inspiring! I have said this on numerous occasions: your work saved mine and my boys’ lives, Mel. I was so fortunate to come upon your work when I did, so that when my then seven year old son said to me “I am sometimes scared that A is going to kill you”, I knew what I had to do. It took me five months of planning, praying, plotting (and five New Moon Intentions!) and I had him ejected from my home and my life.
    My children and I are open and honest about this experience in our lives. I felt such enormous guilt for a long time: first I had subjected them to a divorce from their father (NOT a narcissist), then a relationship with a narcissist, but I slowly began to realise, from following your work, that they would not be here if they could not handle it and that this was part of our contract, as a mother and child. The experience and the resulting HEALING has equipped us all with tools we would never have had otherwise. I had to sit in front of them and be accountable: “I didn’t always listen to you and for that I am deeply sorry. Going forward, I hear you. You have my word that I will never again expose us to narcissistic abuse.”
    From the bottom of my heart, so much gratitude to you, Mel.

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Gudrun,

      Thank you and it makes me so happy to know I have been able to help you and your boys.

      That is so great you knew what you had to do. I love the openness and honesty and growth that you have generated for yourself and your children.

      Is is so inspirational.

      Thank you Gudrun for being such a beautiful Thriver.

      So much love to you.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    Nancy Getek
    November 4, 2019

    Beautiful video showing so much about the power of NARP! Thank you Mel and a BIG thank you to Zac for opening up and sharing with us!

    November 4, 2019

    Dear Mel & Zac,

    I just watched you and Zac and was so pleased to see the deep utter joy from you, and how well he’s come out the other end from a narc situation, and doesnt Zac look like you :).

    Every fortnight my 30month old is taken for a court ordered weekend Visit with his father. He comes back with deep dark shadows which I know is from crying his eyes out every night until the wknd is over. The Psychologist warned the court my ex was a danger but the Judge Ignored him completely saying he didn’t believe psychologists, that men have rights, and I had no right to leave my violent ex. He said he was sick of women “making up” violence stories. My ex who got caught lying in sworn statements again and again got every thing he demanded as he predicted he would, when I left him after he beat me and I wouldn’t go back. The judge all but said I should have gone back can you believe.

    For 2 yrs I’ve religiously practiced parallel parenting and my ex HATES me for not letting him break that. So every fortnight he takes the child and tortures him by keeping him, then writes glowing lying reports to me about how great the weekend was. My sweet natured child comes back dirty, dressed in second hand clothes, with diaper rash, sleep deprived Angry and upset. I fill him up with love, he starts to feel safe then the whole thing starts again.

    I can’t go back to court because this Men’s rights judge is so bitterly unprofessional, and my ex is over joyed at the power he’s been handed over us. So I send my child to be emotionally tortured by this father, the man I chose, and there’s nothing I can do.

    There is no bottom to cruelty of my ex. He will never ever stop using the baby. He claims he’s found true love with another woman yet he’ll text me garbage at 2, 3, 4am on OFW which I ignore. I wake up at night thinking I’m having a nightmare and realize this really is happening again and again and again.

    I don’t even know what I’m asking you, (my boy is so much younger then yours was when your nightmare began) but perhaps you’ll tell me what I need to hear?
    Thank you.


    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Elli,

      Thank you for your beautiful words regarding Zac and I.

      Elli sweetheart my heart goes out to you in spades I cant even imagine how torturous and heartbreaking that is.

      Ellie I recommend NARP for everyone in terrible situations with ns especially when their precious children are affected

      It is the only way I know to shift an unsuitable situation.. when you shift on the inside, truly that is when the miracles happen. Time and time again even and especially in situations like yours where there are logical and practical answers.

      Thst is the greatest most powerful help and true solution I can ever hand you.

      Much love to you and your son

      Mel 🙏💕💛

      November 6, 2019

      You should document this and take pictures of the state your helpless child comes back to you. He is being a neglectful parent and it shouldn’t continue. I wish you the best.

    November 4, 2019

    Hi Mel and Zac, I have 19 year old son that went to college 2 months ago and ended up binge drinking and blacking out. Campus police arrested him and he ended up waking up in jail with no money and no phone. He has always been sweet, sensitive and kind kid. I ended up withdrawing him from school and he just finished 4.5 week rehab for alcoholism. The timing of his drinking and the self sabotage has correlated right from beginning of his father and my separation. I have followed you almost from the start, but have never taken your course. A lot of what Zac mentioned about his identity and self confidence hit home with how my son feels about himself. He just got his 30 day chip from AA. Over next few months he will be figuring out A lot about himself and what direction he wants to go. I am very hopeful after seeing Zac that my son is going to be just fine. Thank you for sharing! I read a lot about NPD and sometimes it makes my day worse, but when I listen to you and your videos it feels inspirational and comes love and transformation! Maybe it’s time to join the program!:)🙏🏻❤️

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Kirsten,

      My heart goes our to you … this is exactly what Zac and I went through.

      Kirsten I cant recommend NARP enough.

      There are countless parents, just as I did, see miraculous results of their children healing as they did with the program.

      We receive these reports every day.

      I hope this inspires you.

      Much love to you and your son.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 4, 2019

    This is such a beautiful episode. Thank you, you really help me every day. xxxx

    November 5, 2019

    Hi Melanie and Zac,

    the questions you address in the video have been nagging at me for a long time, even years, but I did not have the language for it. Since NARPing (3 months now) I can now tackle this as it provides me with words & method (that works!). As it is a huge topic some questions remain. Can you please do another episode on this topic, my questions would be: “Is there a difference in proxy-healing a son (less/reduced empathic personality) or a daughter (she is very empathic)” and “Is permission from the child needed? How to get it?”.

    I still feel proxy healing seems a little complicated (so many emotions that get me when figuring it out), can you do a separate NARP-Module “talking” proxy-healing for kids through as an mp3-file?”

    Thanks for the video! Thousand thanks! Congratulations, it is just fantastic and I will return to it many times. You are both really bringing light into this!

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Hi Ann,

      I’m so pleased that you have been NARPing and healing for 3 months and clarity is happening for you.

      The method truly is identical for whoever you are working on, because you are picking up their individual traumas to be cleared with Module 1 or usually the Source Healing and Resolution Module or a Goal Setting Module.

      Permission can be acquired physically or by asking intuitively their Higher self and receiving the answer as a ‘yes’ by muscle test or by intuition.

      The process truly isnt complicated, and once you do get going with it you will discover this. Yet, I highly recommend coming into the NARP members forum to receive any needed guidance.

      I hope this helps.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 5, 2019

    Thank you for this episode.
    I also have a son who is 16 now, and who was affected from his N father.
    We already a year live separate from N.
    And these points you mentioned today are very important.
    In the start of my journey, I and of course my son we were feeling us as victims, helpless.
    I also felt guilt for that my son have to go through this hell.
    And I promised to him, that I will find a way to change everything.
    I was talking to my son about my journey.
    And I told him what I will do, when I started narp sessions.
    And he could see the change in me after every session – when after an hour his triggered, powerless, sad, victimized mother shifted to calm, energic, strong, empowered being.
    I think it gave him a hope, that we will go through these tough times.
    All my other actions to make him stronger and confident, had no effect.
    Only effective way was to make shift in myself and my son’s inner being followed. 🙂
    Only after I made shifts, my son started to behave more confident. What I learned, he learned after me.
    The biggest gift you can give to your child, is that he sees his parent is no more victimized, triggered, guilty, abused, and this gives him a knowing, that also for him it is possible to heal and really live true, free, empowered meaningful life, even after so bad times.

    Melanie and Zack – I can not tell in words, how big and important impact you made to my life and my son’s life.
    Thank you!
    And all blessings to you!

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 5, 2019

      Awww Tigre,

      I applaud you and the way you lead the way for your son.

      Thank you beautiful lady for Thriving and so much love to you and your son.

      Blessings and breakthroughs always for you both.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 5, 2019

    Wow, found this on my Google news feed in California….good stuff, seriously needed here…..👍👍👍👏👏👏
    (Excellent life changing program for newbies reading for first time…a must do…you will not look back)

    November 5, 2019

    Wow, found this post on my Google news feed in California….good stuff, seriously needed here…..👍👍👍👏👏👏
    (Excellent life changing program for newbies reading for first time…a must do…you will not look back)

      November 5, 2019

      Gosh this is such a major concern in the community for younger children and teenagers. I saw so much of the affects on them working in child protection . It can be profoundly damaging and life shaping if children don’t have a strong role model and some stability. Well done Zac and Mel for this. This is a huge and much needed support for parents who often simply don’t know what to do. Please keep it going; Zac you have a wealth of experience and understanding to contribute here and great relatable communication skills. Sending love and blessings to you both . It’s a joy to see you spinning straw into gold ❤️❤️

      • Melanie Tonia Evans
        November 5, 2019

        Hi Val,

        Thank you for your beautiful words and support.

        I am so proud of Zac and I agree that he has got so much to offer this community and others.

        Much love to you

        Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 5, 2019

    Dear Melanie and Zac

    So great to hear you both together and describe parts of your journeys.
    So inspiring and so informative and helpful to all out there with children.

    I really know that when I shift my daughter shifts and has.
    I am so grateful to you for all your work and NARP it is so powerful in healing our traumas and helping our children.

    So much love
    Reena xxx

    Roger Cunningham
    November 5, 2019

    I lost my sons to a narcissist…..they are 19 and 24 now….I am 20 years older than my narc ex companion so I feel the clock ticking on my remaining chance to reunite with my sons….and horror of horrors I certainly believe both of my sons are narcs. And I’m certain that I have done the wrong things… I sent an email to my youngest when he graduated high school explaining that his mother is a narcissist and what that meant…he shared it with his older brother and I was told to never contact them again….that was 16 months ago and I have not heard from them. I felt so strongly that I had to educate them about what happened to our family before I wouldn’t be able. So if my two children are narcissists also I reckon there is no hope and all is for nought…it is overwhelming to think they have to pay for the sins of their father…

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 6, 2019

      Hi Roger,

      my heart goes to you.

      Wishing you and your sons healing and loving reunion.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 6, 2019

    Love, love, love this episode. I have been waiting for this one. I am a member of NARP and I am at peace with myself, and I am very thankful for Mel and showing us the way. I have been separated from my children for a few years now and recently just started to heal my thoughts in relation to my children. After watching this episode last night, I decided to take a well deserved day off from work and dedicate myself to healing the relationship with my children the quantum way. I feel good about where I am at and just finished up the source healing and resolution module for any blocks that are in the way from preventing a loving, healthy, respectful relationship that is reciprocated with my children.

    Zac, thank you coming forth to do a episode with your mother, you are a fine young man and I am so proud of you. I know in my heart that something good will come out of all of this for my children and I.

    Much love to the both of you and I wish you both a blessed holiday season.


    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 6, 2019

      Hi Amy,

      I’m so happy that this episode was meaningful to you.

      Darling heart sending you Quantum resolution and healing with your children.

      So much love from Zac and myself beautiful lady.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 6, 2019

    Oh, thank you so much Mel and Zac for being together and sharing in this episode xxx I found this so inspiring, tearful too (in a wonderful, heartfelt way!) as it resonates so much with my own experiences, and my beautiful 14 year old son Jake ❤️

    I’m eternally grateful to you Mel for all your work, it has been hugely instrumental in transforming both my life and my son’s x NARPing and Thriving! is a way of life for me now 😊🌸

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 7, 2019

      Hi Rowena,

      you are very welcome sweetheart.

      Thank you for your beautiful post.

      Much love to you and Jake.

      I love that you are Thriving for him and you!

      Mel and Zac 🙏💕💛

    November 8, 2019

    Hello dear Melanie and Zac ,
    Thank you so much for answering our questions . My question was the second one answered and my name came out weird with Siri I guess … it gave me a smile .. it’s not Korean something … lol …. it’s Karina…
    I just wanted to take a minute to apologize to Zac because in my pain I didn’t realize I may have asked a trigger question….
    Dear Zac I am so relieved that your biological father is not the N that nearly destroyed your mum and I am ever so grateful to both of you for answering so genuinely ..
    Of course the reason behind that question was me trying to understand how Zac had agreed to speak so openly about his dad and narcissistic abuse .. now I understand that it was his step dad …. which doesn’t make the abuse any less for neither of you …. however it may make it easier for Zac to acknowledge it ….
    in my case my adult children do not see nor understand the damages of 35 years marriage with a covert narcissist ( sorry Mel I thought your ex was covert too ) and this is a great source of injustice for me ( I would soooooo love them to understand as Zac does ) …
    I am new to Narp and have been trying very hard to go inwards and find the joys of life again …. it’s a daily battle … but I have Already learned not to feel like a victim but rather a survivor … and hopefully one day soon with Mel’s Help a THRIVER …
    I live in France and to my utter dismay I can’t participate On the healing sessions you are offering in Australia … I would have loved to meet you both .. Meanwhile sending you both heartfelt virtual hugs ..
    Blessings to you 2 lovely souls

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 8, 2019

      Hi Karina darling,

      I am so sorry that we got your name wrong!

      Please know sweetheart that when you release that injustice with NARP then truly you will not feel it.

      Then it could be entirely possible that they get it, or not, but in no way will your incredible rebirth, life and future be dependent on it at all.

      That is unconditional emancipation, that truly doesn’t work in any other way.

      Karina don’t try to feel good yet – that is not what the journey is about at the start – that part happens organically without ANY effort when you just focus on meeting all these traumas within and releasing them with NARP.

      Does that make sense? It is a KEY understanding that will help you beyond measure.

      Your job, right now, is to not try to force your Inner Child/Being into feeling good when she is feeling wretched. It is about taking away her trauma and freeing her from it so that she can come back to Who She Really Is – organic joy and life-force.

      Please know Karina that even though at this stage Zac and I cant meet you in person, we are with you Dear Lady in every way in spirit.

      Sending you love, blessings and breakthrough.

      And please come into the NARP Forum so that we can help support you.

      Mel 🙏💕💛

    November 8, 2019

    I am a few months free from a 13 year relationship with who I now realise is a classic narcissist. During that time I helped him support and raise his children. The two youngest were very young when we met and are now 17 and 14. I tried many times to end the relationship in a ‘good way’ so the kids were not upset. But of course that couldn’t happen and I ended up broken and damaged and unable to take any more. I am ashamed to say I walked out without a word one morning at a very bad time causing more upset that I could ever imagined.

    I have been through all the love bombing , rage, promises, head melting stuff with my ex and have started to move away from the dreadful feelings of guilt. Thankfully my ex has now gone to discard mode and is leaving me alone. (I’m pretty sure he is now in another relationship) But my ex’s kids want nothing to do with me. This hurts so much and there is nothing I can do.

    I think I was wanting an opportunity to explain myself so they would understand why I did what I did but im beginning to see that this would only make it worse. But should I just now leave it totally and hope they come round? Do I send gifts at Xmas and text wee things of interest I see or just leave it and work on myself?
    Thanks for all the insight. It has helped so much to understand what has been going on. I wish id known this years ago.

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 9, 2019

      Joan hun,

      This is so painful what you have been through.

      I really want you to know what is so vital here … any reaching out that you do whilst you still feel traumatised will only bring results that add to your trauma.

      This is why I am so committed to helping people understand that the first step is ‘heal’. Commit to you. Make your soul and emotions the number 1 priority. Then you will know what to do or not to do and be at peace with it.

      From this inner place then the outer can enter to match you … and if it doesn’t you will be whole anyway.

      If you are ready to truly heal.from this then NARP is the most powerful solution.

      If you would like to understand more about all of this please come into my freewebinar and to also gain some fast and real relief from the trauma.

      My heart goes out to you and I so hope this helps.

      Mel 🙏💕♥️

    Sean D Stewart
    November 9, 2019

    This was super helpful, thank you.

      November 9, 2019

      Thank you so much dearest Melanie ,
      Your advice about not forcing my way to feeling good just yet while my inner being is wretched makes total sense .. After all how can one thrive without access to ones soul ? I need to get my soul back and heal it and love it and the rest will come organically …. I hope …I do worry that I am too damaged to be able to come back to « organic joy and life-force «  but I know this is a common issue with most new narpers .. thank you for giving us HOPE…
      Much love

      • Melanie Tonia Evans
        November 9, 2019

        Hi Karina,

        Please know darling heart you can come back. So many of us literally almost came back from the dead – evennwhen we were told we would never recover.

        Please know there is so much support for you in the NARP members forum

        Lots of love and know there is more than hope

        Mel 🙏💕♥️

    • Melanie Tonia Evans
      November 9, 2019

      I’m so pleased this helped Sean

      Mel 🙏💕♥️

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